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written by pet. ioannou , Δεκέμβριος 10, 2008

HI GUYS, SINCE I MAY NOT BE AT SOUVLAKI TOMORROW, I WANT TO OFFER MY SUGGESTION FOR OUR ATP TOUR :

I SUGGEST TO OFFER PRIZE MONEY TO THE WINNER, FINALIST, AND SEMI FINALISTS. THE REASONS: IT WILL MAKE IT MORE APPEALING TO ALL, INCREASE THE PRESTIGE OF OUR TOURNAMENT, MAY ATTRACT MORE AND BETTER PLAYERS, PLUS IT WILL COVER SOME OF THE PLAYERS EXPENSES (EQUIPMENT, COURT TIME, TRANSPORTATION ETC)

THANKS.

Teams Competition Proposed Format
written by Costas Avraam , Δεκέμβριος 11, 2008

11.12.2008

Teams Competition

1.A players Committee will be nominated, voted and formed by all other players & will consist of a President, Vice-President, Treasurer, Secretary and 4 other committee members. Preferably one member from each team and annual elections can be held to elect new committee members.

2.The Committee will govern the running of the competition regarding rules, disputes and disciplinary actions required (towards teams or individuals).

3.8 Teams of 4 players (or more), are required to form a competition and will have to nominate their Home courts. There can be more than one team playing from the same Home courts but each team must allocate 2 courts for their matches ie: 4 courts will have to be made available on the same day, or, one team can be at Home that week, the other plays away and the fixtures can be arranged so that there is no clash. We can therefore have teams playing out of Eleon, BOC, Laiki, Field Club, Strovolos. Teams will get the opportunity to play on different surfaces each week. In the case of Laiki and if both teams agree, one of the courts can be Hard and the other Artificial grass.

4.Each team must have a nominated Captain. Captains are the contact point for each team and will be responsible for fielding their teams each week, ie: if players are unavailable the Captain shall find replacements. Captains will keep a Captains book and record scores each week which will be signed by both Captains on match days to confirm results.

5.Teams & Players (for Singles and Doubles) for each team must be submitted to the Committee for examination and approval.

6.All players must be registered before the start of the competition. Registered players for specific teams can only play for that team and cannot change teams during the season but can withdraw if they so wish.

7.Singles Players must be ranked in order 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc and must play in that order each week. The number one and two Doubles teams must also be nominated at the start of the season and play in that order. The order of each player and Doubles team can be determined by each team internally or by the Committee. If a higher ranked player is unavailable during a certain week the other players step up. Eg: if the number 2 player is unavailable, the 3 takes his place at number 2, the 4 takes the place of the 3 and so on. For doubles absent players can be replaced regardless of rank.

8.A higher ranked player cannot step back. Eg: the number 1 cannot play at number 2, the 2 cannot play at number 3 and so on. Same applies to Doubles.

9.At the halfway stage of the season (after week 7) teams can alter their Singles and Doubles rankings, eg: a number 2 Singles player may be swapped with the Number 3 and Doubles players may swap partners and re-register. No changes to rankings will be allowed during the Finals.

10.Each team will compete twice against 7 other opposing teams in 14 regular home and away matches during the season.

11.The top 4 teams at the end of the Home & away season will compete in Finals. The order for the finals will be (Team 1 vs Team 4) and (Team 2 vs Team 3). The two winners meet in the final to determine the Champion Team. The higher ranked teams get home ground advantage in finals thus the importance of finishing as high as possible on the ladder.

12.Match days shall consist of 4 Singles Matches and two Doubles matches called Rubbers. Rubbers shall be best of three sets for Singles and Doubles and all sets are subject to Tie-Breaks at 6-6. A tie-break is normal, first to 7 points with a difference of two points.

13.Each Singles and Doubles Rubber is worth 3 points. That makes 6 Rubbers by 3 points equals 18 points plus 4 points for the overall victory equals 22 points.

14.A player or doubles team that wins 2-0 receives all 3 points. If they win 2-1, they get 2 points and the opponents get 1 point. In other words each set won is worth 1 point, so every set counts.

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written by pet. ioannou , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

1. I AGREE WITH THE IDEA OF CREATING TIER OF TOURNAMENTS SO THAT WEAKER PLAYERS CAN MOVE UP GRADUALLY (LIKE IN DAVIS CUP). IT WILL MAKE THINGS MORE FAIR TO ALL AND MORE COMPETITIVE IN THE LOWER TIER.
2. I THINK THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TOURNAMENTS FOR A YEAR IS 7-8, PLUS THE MASTERS. ANYTHING OVER THAT IS A LOGISTICAL NIGHTMARE FOR MELIS AND YIANNOS. THEY DO SO MUCH ALREADY. PAYING UP FRONT SOUNDS AND 10 EURO PER TOURN. IS FAIR. (TOTAL 70-80 EUROS ANNUALLY)

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written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

Yiannos the Guru proposal for 2009 ATPCY singles tourn schedule.

3 grand slam draws(128 persons),and 6 (x2 or x3) 32 draws. A total of 9 tourn for each player per year.

We can have 3 'grand slams' per year with all players participating in the same draw of 128 persons, exactly like the tourns we had so far.
Points
Winner 1000, Finalist 700, semi 450, quarters 225, r16 125, r32 75, r64 35, r128 15.
This tourn takes 6 weeks to complete.
Dates:1st 15Mar-30 April, 2nd 1 June-12 July, 3rd 25 sept-10oct. Entance fee 20euro.

6 (x2 or x3) x32 draws. Or Tier 1, Tier 2, ..etc...
This draws will be based on the ranking place of each player. Each player will compete in the draw that his ranking place allows him. The higher ranking the higher Tier.
Points.
Tier 1.Winner 500, Finalist 340, semi 220, quarters 120, r16 60,r32 20.
Tier 2.Winner 300, Finalist 180, semi 100, quarters 60, r16 40, r32 15.
Tier 3.Winner 180, Finalist 110, semi 70, quarters 45, r16 25, r32 10.
This tourn takes 4 weeks to complete.
Dates.
1st 15Jan-15Feb, 2nd 15Feb-15Mar, 3rd 1May-30 May, 4th 12 July-12 Aug., 5th 20 Aug-20 sept, 6th 15 oct-15 Nov. Entrance fee 15 euro.
End of November Masters Cup.

The ranking points for each player will be summed by the points accumulated in the 3 grand slams of the year plus his other BEST 3 results in the tiers. This will put less pressure to the tier tourns as one can have 2-3 bad results without affecting his ranking points.(Note:If a player misses a grand slam he'll take points from 2 grand slams and 4 tiers and etc to a max of 6 events).

I also suggest that one can pay in advance a fee of 100 euro as participation fee for all (9) tourns of the year. This will help to cut down collection of money time and also it will help (Menelaos)to start each tourn without having to confirm 100 participations.

I think that with this schedule everybody will get benefitted.
1.All players will have more tourns to play in.
2.The 'strongest' players will get 'less' matches with 'weaker' opponents and at the same time they can choose to drop out of some events to rest as they normally play far more matches than the others and focus in the Grand slams and 2-3 more events.
3.The 'weaker' players will still have the chance to meet the 'big guns' in the grand slams while they'll have more 'competitive' matches in the tiers tourns where there will be no 'stronger' opponents to face and one surely will end up trophie winner. Also as there could be tourns during August and also heavy scheduling, some 'weaker' players will be automatically be competing in the higher tiers.
4. Players who are injured or travel a lot and miss some tourns (also players who come in mid-season) will have the luxury to catch up the others in the rankings as each player will get points from only 6 events (3 grand slams and 3 tiers or 2 slams and 4 tiers etc).
5. Stonger players who now find atpcy level 'weak' will be 'lured' into some tier 1 tourns as probable 'wild cards' and most probably will stay in atpcy. This could be the 'altimate' success for atpcy as soon our level could defenitelly reach level that a year ago could have been impossible.
6. The probable continuation of the current 'format' might lead to the loss of the 'top guns' of our tourn as they will gradually lose interest after winning a couple of trophies and at the same time a lot of weaker players are 'scared away' from a couple of 'bad losses'.

Atp Cy has been a very succesfull 'idea', copying almost everything from the real Atp world. All above ideas are also taken from the AtpWorld and i'm sure if put down to 'play' they will result to much more fun and at the same time 'help' ALL participating players improve their games.

Yiannos the guru....

P.s I'd be glad answer any possible questions if asked...
P.s It goes without saying that all above ideas are open to discussion.

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written by Alive , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

Yiannos, you have my vote!! I agree with all your suggestions!

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written by Panikos Constantinou , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

Yianno, u put 2 tournaments in the middle of the summer where many people will be away. 4 tournaments is better than 6

Summer tournies
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

Panic
...although people go away a lot stay behind and want to play...i'm sure that we will manage to get 25-32 people out of 130 persons who want to compeet...anyway it's a chance for some to play in tier 1 as a lot of the others will not be playing...the fact that only 6 events will be calculated in the rankings leaves all 'vacationers' in no bad potition as they'll surely get into 6 tournies....Also as vacations start from june for some and ends late september for others, this format makes it easier as everybody will go on holidays whenever they want without having to mind that they will miss a tournie and loss some possible 'precious' points....

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written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

About Petros comments referring money prizes.....
I don't think giving money a very good idea as it's not insentive for playing tennis. A big money prize might 'attract' 'tixodioktes' who might come just to make some cash. Anyway now, the winners do get some vauchers as a 'reward'. I think though that in the near future we can 'invite' our top guns to play without having to 'pay' participation fees as this 'paying' sound like 'oximoron' to me.

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written by Akis Iosephides , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

i think combining costas and yiannos proposals would be the ultimate. 6 to 9 tours and a team (davis cup) senario going on a relaxed basis.

LETS GO

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written by pet. ioannou , Δεκέμβριος 12, 2008

yiano mu i agree with all you say, but i dont mean that we need money incentives for playing tennis. we all love tennis and ,personally ,i play tennis for fun for many years and never think twice. all i am saying is that a nominal prize will help with some of the peoples costs , even 50-100 euros is good. but i understand your argument.

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written by Panikos , Δεκέμβριος 13, 2008

Overall very good suggestions by Costas and Yiannos. But in order to apply both suggestions at the same time, you need to very carefully consider 2 factors (as always): AVAILABLE TIME FOR PLAYERS + AVAILABLE COURTS.

'Past experience should be a good lesson for future decisions'

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written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 13, 2008

Panic ....its nicer to post here than in the chat box as here we can go back and recall our words....
Reffering to My suggestion and Costas' now i'd like to say that ....

1. What Costas is suggesting is a complete different format to what we had so far. It looks interesting and we (us 8-10 persons) would like to give it a try to check how good it is and how 'workable' it can get as surelly it's more difficult to put 'teams' into disciple and timetables compared to 'single' players, while also court availability is in doubt. But surely it cannot replace any of the existing singles or doubles tourns of ATCcy, as Melis and team, have no self-destracting intentions.

2. What i am suggesting is just a 'face-lift' of the existing tourns. Cutting down from 5 to 3 the big tourns and replacing the other 2 with 4,5 or 6 smaller draw tourns that will be finished faster and where the level of the players will be of more similar power. To add to that i suggested some point-system changes that will make the whole thing a bit more spicy, just like the real AtpWorld....

I DON'T think that the 2 ideas CANNOT run at the same time but i'm afraid that having both MIGHT make the one fight the other. As this is the case, i do insist that one kind of face-lift (not necesarilly mine) should be made to the current format while Costas' idea could be 'test-drived' at the side and if succesfull, we shall try and form our 1st ATPCY Team Tour or else TT1.

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written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 13, 2008

Also Panic...
About the comment 'AVAILABLE TIME FOR PLAYERS' i don't thing that this is a concern of ATPCY. Some peolpe tell me...'yes but I go some days to play football' or 'but i have my wife' or 'we are playing in the tennis nationals also'....
Well what about those 'tennis freaks' who are single, don't play football or bowling and do not play in other tennis tourns? Should we push those 'atpcy-devotees' into other tourns? into other sports? or push them to get married to fill up their time?
I strongly believe that ATPCY should make A FULL CALENDAR YEAR TOURNS to satisfy every need of a 'tennis-lunatic' and anyone can choose when and where they want to participate..

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written by Panikos , Δεκέμβριος 14, 2008

Thx Yiannos for taking the time and discussing my concerns. I dont have a strong opinion about it, just expressing some views that other players surely have, thats all.

A few comments: I am not against your 'facelift' suggestion, my only worry is about the parallel running of your format (or current format if it stays like this) with the Team Play Competition.

Many players are tennis freaks, but as you mentioned before, people have other responsibiities too. You can test it, but I predict that at the end it will be very difficult to work (again, because of time and availability of courts).

What about the administrative burden for Menelaos??

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written by Manolis , Δεκέμβριος 14, 2008

First of all, tennis "freaks" is not the correct terminology. "Passionate, dedicated, etc" is more accurate.

Secondly, other tournaments are held at specific courts. I know, the difficulties involved, but if there was some way to keep each tournament to a specific surface at least? Of course, even similar surfaces have a lot of differences sometimes....

Thirdly, in my mind, "amateur" means "not for money", though technically it means you don't earn more than 50% of your income... If I had to vote, I would vote on the side of no prize money (vouchers are ok, I guess). However on the subject of money, I would like to point out that in the other Cyprus tournaments (I am a first round visitor usually...) the entry fee includes the courts, lights, balls (Michali, are you reading?), and sometimes water. Oh, and prize money. For €10. Let the suggestions begin....

And finally, most other tournaments have age categories. Suggestion: extra category 35+ or over 40+ ...whichever Menelaos fits into 'cause I want to face him across the net.. ).

And finally, finally (honest), the criteria for who is eligible to participate needs to be re-looked at. If George can play, so should (my friend) Panicos. If we keep it without prize money, the "full-time players" won't be interested...

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written by Panikos , Δεκέμβριος 14, 2008

1. I agree with the terminology

2. There are already thoughts that for each tournament, QF,SF and the Final will be played on the same type of court, for example for the 1st tournament, the last rounds will be played on clay, the 2nd tournament on hard courts etc. I agree with this.

About categories by age, maybe its something that it should be examined at a later stage. Cuurently the thoughts are to create Groups by atpcyprus Rankings, which is probably a better criterion.

Final point: if good players currently outside atpcyprus are invited to play for atpcyprus, how are they going to play in the strong Group 1 if they will have no ranking points in the beginning???
About George, yes I agree with Manolis that he is at least one level than the rest and maybe it was unfair for the other players so far.

PS: Coach, I am pretty happy playing in the Doubles Tournament only, I really dont mind not playing in the Singles.

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written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 15, 2008

I'd like to welcome Manolis to his 'maiden' comment-suggestion in the side so far.
1. Terminology issues are open to each persons mind for translation and thats why i put it in quotations.

2. I agree that the entrance fee should come along with a free 'box' of tennis balls as we can not offer courts or anything else. Meli....You can try and make a deal for something like 1000 boxes(rough calculation fo entrees per year) of balls for a year ....We could get a really good prize.

3. Surface issues are going around but we do have some difficulties into putting ideas into action due to court limitations. My idea was to make each 'grand slam's' final 2-4 rounds in the same surface and the same should apply to all tier events preeciding the slams.(again like the real atp world)
1st Grand Slam (Mar-April) could be carpet,
2nd slam in June clay
and the 3rd could be either hard (but as there are very few hard courts) probably carpets again.....or a compination of the 2...

4. The age category is also an interesting issue and must be put into account but i think that the 'face-lift' should proceed and then we can put along in the side some 'senior' tourns probably over 40. P.s I turn 40 next year...

New strong players
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 15, 2008

Panic...
About your point refering to stong players who are not playing in atpcy and how they can compeet in a tier 1 event i wonna say this.
I've mentioned in my suggestion article in point 5 that this 'outside' players can enter this events as 'wild cards', meaning that we can choose to allow them to enter the tier 1 draw for one tourn and then if we feel that this player 'suits' atpcy likings and is toward our tourns' benefit to have him play with us, we can allow him to keep on playing (i guess in the tier that his accumulated points allow him).
Of course he is gonna continue to play if only he likes the competition and thus i guess a 32 draw will offer to him no 'weak' games that might 'bore' him 'off' compared to a 64 draw (that Antonis is suggesting).

"Strong" players...
written by Manolis , Δεκέμβριος 15, 2008

The problem with your idea Panic is that the decision will be based on someone making a personal judgement. Difficult to be impartial.

Also, one of the reasons for participating in a tournament is to become a "stronger" player.... I think the only impartial way is by official rankings, with a committee decision on special cases. Like my friend Panic

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written by Skoupa® , Δεκέμβριος 16, 2008

Den yparchoun Gypeda!!!nBoc - tragiki i katastasi nLaiki - den kserwnEleon - Pio tragikinFc - aschimi - Echoun sto mati to ATPCyprus kai dimiourgoun provlimatannMe auta ta dedomena den mporw na prochorisw se tournoua pou na ginonte se sigekrimenes epifaniesnnManoli an thes na sou doso kai liga € na kratas panw sou mipos kai sou tichei kanena aproopto!!!!nnYianno den yparchei periptosi na organothoun perisotera apo 9 tournoua single & Double (5+4). An Prostheseis kai to Master Cup ginonte 10. (Yparchei megali pithanotita gia Doubles Master Cup tou chronou me toulachiston 4 omades)nnDen mporw na elenchw to poso kalos einai kapios otan mpenei sto ATPCyprus (den yparchei tropos). O George sto proto tournoua echase sto proto gyro apo ton Antoni (!!) Meta anevase strofes. To idio mporei na ginei tora me to Mateo. To sigouro oti den tha epidioksw na ferw kai allous Giorgides.nnn

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written by Panikos Constantinou , Δεκέμβριος 16, 2008

Epitelous Menelae pou eksigises kai stous allous tin pragmatikotita (graptws)!

Manoli, h eisigisi gia na mpounoun outside players is NOT MINE! Its Guru`s and some other people`s idea. On the contrary, I actually questioned it.

I agree that the main idea should be for players to improve (here comes the importance of practice and friendlies and not too many tournaments) so that they can be more competitive against the existing better atpcyprus players. This will not be achieved by just bringing more very good players similar to George.

'Outside players'
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 16, 2008

Well i was an 'outside player' 4 months ago, the same was Alive,Yacine,Sideris,Mateo,Papa,2xAntoniades,A.Michaelides,Matic,The Avraams,Azais and a few more. I hope we don't cause too many 'troubles' to atpcy.
If one read my suggestions tha evlepe pos isigoume 'pos na elenxoume to epipedo enos pexti' alla distixos o kathenas (Melis) grafi oti skeftete horis na diavasi kai na katalavi tis isigisis tou allou. isos epidi ta grafo sta agglika.....
I'm disappointed to read that Melis says 'dictatorica' "den yparchei periptosi na organothoun perisotera apo 9 tournoua single and double". Ke eroto, giati xrisimopia plithintiko arithmo "na organothoun" afou stin pragmatikotita ine 'ego papas ego Tatas' ke kani oti apofasisi o idios.
Akomi ine 'gelio' na vazoume link me 'isigisis' ke na mpenoume (Melis) meta apo polli sizitisi metaxi ton pexton kai aplos na dikeologoume 'giati den efarmozoume mia isigisi' kai na psiloironeuomaste kai tis isigisis kapion triton (Manoli).
Akomi, den xero pos mporoume na leme (Melis again) pos den tha epidioksoume na feroume allous Giorgides (Papa) sta tourns ke pos prepi na niothi o George otan to diavasi.

Telionontas to mono pou vlepo ine 2 pithani dromi.
1st. Arxizoume na 'pokatharizoumen' to atpcy vgazontas exo proto proto ton Papa kai isos osous pezoun kalo tennis sto mellon....
or 2nd prospathoume na veltiosoume to epipedo tennis atpcy se vathmo pou to atpcy na ine 'antagonistiko' se polla diaforetika epipeda ikanotitas ktl ktl....

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written by Skoupa®- , Δεκέμβριος 16, 2008

Mou aresei i efcheria sou na ermineveis kata to dokoun ti einai astio kai ti ironia.
To ''aggouri'' tis organosis einai sto diko mou kolo ara dikeomatika apofasizw kai posi vazelini kai se ti rithmous tha kinite (ironia i asteio ?)
Den tha scholiasw to ''o kathenas (melis)'' nomizw efiesou
Echw kathe dikeoma kai egw opos kai esi na grafw oti thelw. Panta ypefthina kai eponima. Se katalamvenw otan milas kai to echw apodiksei poles fores sto parelthon
Sto thema tou George to echo milisei mazi tou ouk oliges fores. Den einai skopos mou na mi ferw allous kalous pektes san ton George alla na tous ferw siga siga otan niosw oti ta tournoua mas to sikonoun.
Echw arketes skepseis alla pistevw oti to na grafeis aferei apo ta logia sou ton tono kai tin ekfrasi kai einai eukola pareksigisimo. Elpizw na vrethoume (oi perisoteroi) tin idia wra se kapio trapezi na kouventiasoume. (sponta gia ti sinantisi mas sto souvlaki pou oi perisoteroi irthan kathisterimenoi kata 1 kai vale wra)

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written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 16, 2008

Melis....
Den mou aresi na xrisimopio ton xoro edo gia asxeta sxolia para gia isigisis alla tha to kano.
Herome pou toulaxiston hrisimopias eniko arithmo (na fero, na nioso) toulaxiston na xeroume oli pios 'apofasizi' gia to ti tha gini (ti tha kanis). Sigoura exis to dikeoma auto.
To 'kathenas' afora olous, to (Melis) exiga pos stin singekrimeni fasi ennoousa esena. Den itan 'O kathenas Melis'....
Alla na kano ke mian isigisi....To Link auto pou grafi 'isigisis' na to metonomasis se kati allo an tha apofasizis 'monos' sou gia to posi vazelini kai tin taxitita pou tha exi to 'aggourin'.
Telos, simfono oti eukola 'parexigoumaste' graptos alla distixos mono etsi tha mporousa na se kano na kikloforis me ena 'filladio' pou exi tes isigisis mou pano....Diaforetika, mpennoun pou to ena tsie fkennoun pou to allon...(kala adikisa se llion sto telefteon sxolion)....

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written by Skoupa® , Δεκέμβριος 17, 2008

Αν δεν έτυχε να σου το ξαναπώ τις αποφάσεις για το ΑTPCyprus τις παίρνουμε από κοινού με τον Ανδρέα (Ουστά). Άκουσα για ακόμη μια φορά αυτά που είχες να πεις. Λυπάμαι αν δεν μπορώ να σε ικανοποιήσω

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written by Iacovos A , Δεκέμβριος 17, 2008

Hello I am finally catching up on the activities and discussions that have been going on the last few days. I think it is a good idea to have a physical meeting to discuss the issues. Adequate advance warning will ensure that those who care about what is going on will have the opportunity to have some input or at least arrange for their thoughts to be put forward. For the record I have enjoyed participating in the current set up of ATPCyprus. As the number of players grows then it is wise to adapt the format to accomodate this and to keep the interest of players of different standards. The format that Yiannos suggests is a good one and I believe will generate alot of interest especially for the grand slams. It seems to me though that one of the biggest issues we have to face is the availability of courts. As an "association" we do not have a specific affiliation to one club (some individual players do) we are often like nomads sometimes relying on the goodwill of fellow members to make arrangements for us. I wonder whether we could approach a Club (for example Bank of Cyprus) and see whether they could offer us a rate for an Association membership. I don't know if atpcyprus has an account with BOC but this may help. Of course those willing to take up such an offer would have to pay their portion for membership. I undersatand that there are many issues here (which Club to approach, the willingness of the Club to enter into such an arrangement (the trade off could be some advertisement on the website), cost etc) but I thought I would throw it out there as an idea. Of course it would be better if we could convince Charis to build an additional 3 courts at his house

Devastated!!!!
written by Costas Avraam , Δεκέμβριος 17, 2008

Yianno, you complain about Menelos making some hardline decisions on how to run the ATPCy callendar events yet you try extremely hard to FORCE your opinions on others to the point where you become confrontational with just about everyone. You were dissapointed because no-one made any comments to your Masters article,yet you spent a considerable amount of time confronting everyone on the New proposal you mentioned above. How should I feel then when I spent quite a considerable amount of time presenting the Teams competition concept only for you to overshadow it with your own concept without so much as a word infavour or against it thus totally dismissing it? 9 Singles Tournaments in a year are too much for the average ATPCy guy married with 2 kids, full time employed and has a wife and kids to occupy his Summer school holidays, Easter & Christmas breaks to name a few. your suggestion of "The ranking points for each player will be summed by the points accumulated in the 3 grand slams of the year plus his other BEST 3 results in the tiers" will be a mathematical nightmare for some poor bustered who has to work it all out. This format would surely benefit only those who have the time to devote to all 9 events and have the luxury to select their best results. So if I am unfortunate enough to have family, social and work related commitments and can't play all 9 events, I am destined to the lower ranks of ATPCy based on my circumstances, unless I can pull out some miracle results in whatever events I can play. In order for the ATPCy events to be fair to everyone we all have to be given the same equal opportunity to participate in the events. Your comment on Point 6 - The probable continuation of the current 'format' might lead to the loss of the 'top guns' of our tourn as they will gradually lose interest after winning a couple of trophies and at the same time a lot of weaker players are 'scared away' from a couple of 'bad losses' is correct yet any discussion to create 2 Tiers for the current format have been ignored by you. It works everywhere else in the world why not try it with ATPCy? You also mention that "All above ideas are also taken from the AtpWorld" valid point but don't forget that those guys are Pros and all they do is hit balls all day for a living. Not all concepts of the PRO ATPTOUR are applicable to AMATURE TENNIS PLAYERS of Cy. And what about Doubles??
Do we scrap this concept in favour of more Singles events? I for one would not be happy and we run the risk of losing players such as Georgos Karoulas / Pambos Antoniou to mention a few who enjoy appearing in doubles events. I agree with Menelaos that changes must be introduced slowly and after much discussion and approval with all concerned.

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written by Alive , Δεκέμβριος 17, 2008

Costa, it's good having you back

I am one those who believe that we need to get together and discuss all these issues in person. Also, in order to avoid any 'overshadows' we need to have a proper agenda...

May I suggest the day of the Master's Cup finals for this discussion? Menelae, would you agree with that?

Alive

P.S.
I am in favour of both the TT (Team Tennis) and the enhanced ATPCy (3 slams + 4-6 Tier-Tournaments). I also believe that we should have 4+ doubles tournaments... Will I be able to take part in all of these?? Most probably not... But it would be nice having the luxury of the option

...
written by Costas Avraam , Δεκέμβριος 17, 2008

Thanks Anastasis, and I am glad you are open minded about the Team Tennis concept. The main reason I decided to post the article above on team Tennis was because I was asked by a number of people who were interested in the idea, such as yourself, Akis, Menelaos, Antonis, Panicos, Manolis, to name a few. The idea was also to be discussed on the evening of the Masters draw at The Souvlaki and again I was asked to present the idea to those present for discussion. Unfortunately the idea was hardly touched on because Yiannos hi-jacked the meeting with his proposal and the teams tennis idea wash forgotten. Yiannos even took Andros Oustas aside and badgered him with his idea for the remainder of the night and beyond. I would hardly call that Democratic and giving everyone a fair go. Yiannos idea is worth considering and so is the Teams Tennis which was not. I understand there is an issue with court availability and time of court hire but these are just some unexplored fields that I believe we can investigate. Furthermore, the idea of introducing more "Good" or "Outside" players should be welcomed as this will improve the prestige of ATPCy. This is why Grading players according to their standard is such a good idea. None of us want to see G.Papas leave ATPCY because he is two time Champ and above the rest, just as i would like to see Panicos play Singles at ATPCy in a category that is suitable for his standard such as "The OPEN" event. Anyone wishing to try out their luck and skills against the caliber of player that George and Panicos are will have a chance and the right to so. Imagine having 16 or more players at that standard as members of ATPCy (which may end up happening eventually as we become more & more popular). Why tell such players there is no place for you here, why not create a place for them??? Many of us will also get a chance to take them on in Doubles as well and this will help boost our standard all round. Let's not forget there are now other competitive organisations setting up camp out there on our door step. The higher quality players we attract the better and all players should be classified according to their standard. Let's be OPEN MINDED!

Home Sweet Home
written by Antonis Av. , Δεκέμβριος 17, 2008

Hi everyone. In case some of you have not realized it, this discussion that is going on right now is of huge historical importance for ATPCyprus and will probably determine what will become of this beautiful concept that has brought all of us together for the love of our sport Tennis. Please keep your tempers in check and patience and tolerance at the highest level. We need to have a healthy discussion of all issues if we are to identify the right direction to take. Our survival will depend on it.

Reading all the suggestions so far it strikes me that there is one crucial underlying issue here that if solved would allow us to hold any type of competition and any number of competitions that would satisfy every ones hunger to play the game. This main problem, as was pointed out by Jack, is that we are homeless. Whether we realize it of not we are as much a club as say the FC of Eleon but with no place to call our own. Many clubs have started out in this way and have managed to solve this problem and have gone on to survive and thrive for many years. We need to solve this problem now if we are to have a future as the top amateur tennis organization in Cyprus.

The suggestion by Alive to call a general meeting of all amateur tennis lovers following the Masters final on Sunday is a great idea. I nominate the first item on the agenda to be “Finding a Home for our Club”.

...
written by Panikos , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

First of all, I agree with Antonis that´We need to have a healthy discussion of all issues if we are to identify the right direction to take´

Secondly, I agree with Alive that: in order to avoid any 'overshadows' we need to have a proper agenda.

Thirdly, I am not sure that the relaxing atmoshpere of the Masters final will be ideal for REALLY SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS, where everybody listens carefully and presents his opinions. Moreover, maybe at least 1 hour will be needed to get into a preliminary agreement. Maybe its better, if a meeting is arranged on another day, where we will have A CLEAR AGENDA. Here is my recommendation for the agenda:

1) Yiannos` suggestion for a ´facelift´. If we agree on principles, such that it will make atpcyprus more competitive and interesting (and hence we accept the idea), then we need to talk about the NUMBER OF THE SMALL DRAWS, taking into consideration: avalable time, administrative burden, fairness (people with more time might end up in unfairly high ranking positions, simply because they can participate in all tournaments-this was pointed out by Costas)

2) Discuss Costas`idea for Team Competition. Since more or less we all agree that it will add extra spice for atpcyprus (and hence accept in on principle), then we should discuss: whether its realistic (in terms of time-at least 4 hours spend on court on weekends) to be done in parallel with the normal format + availability of courts

3) Discuss whether ´outsiders´ who play at a high level similar to George, should be invited in Atpcyprus (my opinion, its still very early to do that, at least another year should be given to atpcyprus amateurs to compete with each other and have the chance to go to semis, final and/or win the trophy-George was a level above all and this wasnt fair for the others- we shouldnt lose sight from the reason atpcyprus was established in the first place).

4) explore the idea of find a ´Home´for Atpcyprus. At prima facie, this seems almost impossible but...

Hi-Jacked ?
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

Costas....
I'm really sorry if you feel that we've neglegted your ideas and if you think that i'm probably the main reason for this....
1. At the day we were supposed to discuss the certain issues it was true that i tried my best to promote my idea. But could i have done otherwise? I always 'fight' for my ideas and thats what i did that night and i though it was also for ATPcy's benefit. I did not hi-jack Oustas but just tried to explain some details as he expessed some questions about my ideas.
2. About the fact that some people have other obligations i'd like to comment again that .....we can not wait for Costas and Anastasis to get permissions from their wifes to play tennis, for Mateo and Petros to finish their football obligations, for Antonis and Barrett to finish their National tourns, for Oustas, Antonopoullos, Matic etc (10 more) to finish Eleon Garros, we cannot wait for Papa, Kkolis, Akis to get healthy, we don't want to wait for George Kon/nou and \n Αυτή η διεύθυνση ηλεκτρονικού ταχυδρομείου προστατεύεται από κακόβουλη χρήση. Χρειάζεται να ενεργοποιήσετε την Javascript για να τη δείτε. '> Αυτή η διεύθυνση ηλεκτρονικού ταχυδρομείου προστατεύεται από κακόβουλη χρήση. Χρειάζεται να ενεργοποιήσετε την Javascript για να τη δείτε. to finish their draws to start out tourns......we want to play tennis now and every day. More draws means more oppurtunities for the weaker players (who make less wins or feel uncomfortable and underperfom in tourns) to improve and prove what they can. The fact that only 3 of 6 tiers events will be calculated in each's ranking points makes it 'fair' for the players who are good and choose to play less (Federer).
3. About the ranking points calculation 'burden' ..... I just talked to Anastasis and assured me that he is gonna work to program a simple excell program that will sort it out automatically. He is actually finishing it before i post this!
4. About Team Tourns..... I said that I'm also interested in that and volunteered for the 'test-drive'. But any TT tourn can start anytime in the next year parallel to the singles and doubles tours while my program scheduling has to start by January to be applicable.
5. I agree with Antonis views that this discussion could be of historical importance and we should be very carefull and also the need of a 'real home', although i do not understand how we can possibly solve it.
6. Panic's suggestion looks reasonable (as he has my schedule is 1st in his agenda)

More for Costas...and Melis...
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

Costa mou.....
You said that i 'ignored' the idea of 2 tiers.... "yet any discussion to create 2 Tiers for the current format have been ignored by you."...
I wonder..... Did you read my idea? It's based on more tiers....

Also....You said that you don't want to miss Karoullas and Antoniou in the doubles....by putting more singles tourns and overshadowing the doubles.....Well, my suggestion about Doubles tourn will also be with heavier scheduling, but i avoided doing so (putting it down yet) as Melis would have already killed me if i did 'suggest' so......With current program we can have the couple you mentioned in 4 events yearly... As both travel a lot it is possible for them to miss a couple of scheduled events...that would result in only 2 tourns for them for next year.....

I think that atpcy will benefit highly with heavier scheduling as we have a lot of 'entrees' that 'ALL' try to fit into the 9 tourns (singles and doubles) we organize per year creating 'havoc'. If more tourns are on paper (9+9) each player will choose to focus to the ones he finds more interesting and more convinient for him.

In the long run, we don't come to atpcy to be 'just top ranks' but only to find partners to play tennis and why not ...win some trophies....
The more the tourns-the more the playing-the more champions (the more money for atpcy).....it's a win-win situation...

Yiannos the Guru.

...
written by Costas Avraam , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

So what you are saying Yianno is F%$#% people who are injured have family or work commitments. You say “We can’t wait for them” but you are speaking only for yourself here. You are basically trying to introduce a system which benefits only people like yourself who want to play tennis every day of the year. You complained some time ago about ankle and elbow problems, Costas Salides has an ankle injury, Kkollis just did a hamstring, Papas has back and elbow problems, Jack needs an operation on his back, I saw Vasiliou and Serafim wearing elbow supports at the Masters and the list goes on. So how do you think a 9 event calendar year plus a RUSHED end of Year Masters event will affect these guys not forgetting that the extra matches played by the other Healthy players can cause them to sustain injuries as well. We’ll be running a Geriatric Hospital instead of a sensible Tennis organization that looks after its members and treats them equally.
If you wish to play extra tournaments enter the Nationals, for they are the true Grand Slam Events.
Re- Team tennis Comp: (I'm fighting for my idea here also)
A solution to the court hire problem is simple. At present every ATPCy match requires the hire of a court for 2 hours. If two matches were to be played at the same venue and on the same court then the court would be hired twice for two hours which equals 4 hours for the one court. The home team rents 2 courts 4 x 2 hour slots on a Sunday. We are only talking of one day a week here, not every day of the week. I believe no club will have an issue of renting 2 courts for a total of 4 hours each as this is not any different to what we are doing now. Those two courts can still be hired to the public or other members Before and after the Team Tennis Comp hours. It’s guaranteed revenue for the venue every week. If we take the Masters as a prime example, 4 Singles matches were played on the Saturday which took exactly 8 hours to complete. Had there been 2 courts The whole affair would have been over in 4 hours, allow another hour each both the doubles that’s 5 hours tops. If we start at say 09:00, the day will be over by 14:00.

F*^%
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

Costas.....
I did not say f*&() injured people.....people get injured whether we have 1 tourn per year or 20 per year. All i said is that if we have more events per year.... the healthy players will have 'enough' tennis to play so as NOT TO RUN to other possible atpcy competitors, while injured people would have 'enough' events to catch up the others when the get healthy. The current format is more 'unfair' to injured people as it gives them NO CHANCES to make-up for the probable loss of a tourney due to injury or whatever other reason might that be (call that holidays, nationals, marital issues, other sporting events)....
ex. if Kkolis wants to attend next years Masters he will be probably starting with a big zero in tourn one if he does not compeet...it is sure that as we have a lot of really good players in the draw that his other results must be 20% better than the other top 8 players of the year for him to make it there. In a worse case scenario (this applied to me this year) which Kkolis chooses to compeet without being 100% ready just to get the free points and a probable cheap early round win Harris risks aggravating his injury or end up with a chronic problem.
With my schedule its easier to come back to tournaments as the tourns start almost every month and skipping a few still leaves you with almost the same chances with someone who played 2 or 3 tourns more....

The nationals needs a 300euro medic report that expires every 3 years. My dream is to compeet in an atpcy event that has as high standards (and why not higher) as the nationals.

Atpcy is a tourn providor and i really don't understand why not expand the offerings (tourns-team tourn included) as long as saficient players (and thus financial benefits) are willing to attend them.

About the team event i'know there are normally a few empty courts at the hilton during sundays but i'm afraid that asking for bookings might lead the hilton to ask for 'paraloga' high fees.

...
written by Costas Avraam , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

Why would they ask for high fees. The purpose of courts is to hire them out and generate revenue. If there are empty courts at the Hilton on Sundays this is a good opportunity to approach them and offer them our idea.
Your comment regarding Kkolis is invalid. We all start with a big fat zero at the start of the year. Given the influx of new players at ATPCY no-one is guaranteed progress beyond second or third round. Having more tournaments will only lead to top players earning sufficient points in selected events to qualify for Masters and boycotting certain events as they do not need to participate in them any more thus weakening the standard of competition. Grand Slam events will also favour the top ranked players as a draw of 128 will still lead to lower ranked players being knocked out 1st or second round 6-0, 6-1 while the top ranked players proceed to benefit from the mega points on offer.

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written by Panikos , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

Guys, it`s obvious that each suggestion has its pros and cons.
In order to get into a mutual agreement, we need to sort of think like a business manager and weigh these pros and cons and come to a conclusion which suggestion has the best benefit to cost ratio (benefit-cost analysis).

My suggestion as a starting point to get through this mess:

For each sugeestion, write dowon in simple sentences the pros and cons:

Example:

Team Competition:

Pros:

Cons:

I think the final list will help all a lot

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written by Skoupa®- , Δεκέμβριος 18, 2008

''Atpcy is a tourn providor and i really don't understand why not expand the offerings (tourns-team tourn included) as long as saficient players (and thus financial benefits) are willing to attend them''

GIATI EIMASTE ERASITECHNES TOURN PROVITERS, ECHOUME DOULIA KAI OIKOGENEIA KAI POLLA ALLA KAI TO TENNIS EINAI TO CHOMPI MAS DEN THELOUME NA GINEI TO ANCHOS MAS. AN ECHOUN PARAPANO ANAGES AS PANE KAI STA ALLA TOURNOUA, AS PEKSOUN KAI KANENA FILIKO AS KAMOUN OTI THELOUN RE GIANNO.

Dame paei mia kipriaki kouventa alla enna sou tin pw pou konta

Kalinikta...

...
written by Panikos , Δεκέμβριος 19, 2008

Menelaos made an excellent point, tennis is our hobby and should stay like this. I say that because I get the feeling that there is a growing tendency for more and more tournaments, implying that the more tournaments, the more enjoyment people will get. This is a fallacy and a myth. People actually want to play friendlies too, where there is much less tension as well. People also want to improve technically and you cannot do that during an official tournament match.

Besides, for many people, tournament matches are a source of stress, I repeat, a source of STRESS AND NOT ENJOYMENT.

Dont fall in the trap thinking that the more tournaments, the more people will enjoy it. I can tell you from my experience that I have seen zillion of official matches where the players were not enjoying playing at all. They were just stressing to win.

I`m sure that`s not what we want, right?

...
written by Yiannos Trillides , Δεκέμβριος 19, 2008

I'm really wondering Costa if you spent any time reading my suggestions, or just find points to prove that it is 'not good'....
I'll just ask you this.
1.'How would you like the format of atpcy scheduling for 2009? As is or face-lifted and if yes how.
a.without Team Competition.
b.with Team competition.
I just expect a general 'sum' of events and your 'tier' categorization if you think that it's needed and a brief comment on the 'points' earned policy.

The Hilton policy it's to charge 'large' so as to avoid guests coming in as they'd rather focus on more members. They say 'want to play at hilton? become a member...'

...
written by Costas Avraam , Δεκέμβριος 19, 2008

Yianno, your passion for the game is unquestionable but as I, Panicos and Menelaos pointed out, the game should be enjoyed and appreciated and be as social as it it should be competitive. The trophies and ranking points are just there to boost our EGOS more than anything. Unless my memory is failing me...I was the one that suggested the Grading (Tiers) system some 2 months ago to make the comp fair & enjoyable for all. Antonis and I have some more comments on the matter which we would like to discuss with all present at the Final on Sunday and perhaps post the discussion on the website later for all to absorb and discuss fully. I personally like the idea of looking forward to playing tournaments rather than dreading the time of HAVING to play another one. Doubles are also much more fun and should never be neglected from our schedule. The world is stressful enough without us adding more stress into our lives by infecting our social activities with the disease. The stress is evident in Menelaos' comment "GIATI EIMASTE ERASITECHNES TOURN PROVITERS, ECHOUME DOULIA KAI OIKOGENEIA KAI POLLA ALLA KAI TO TENNIS EINAI TO CHOMPI MAS DEN THELOUME NA GINEI TO ANCHOS MAS". I for one agree with him 110%.

Melis -Erasitexnis i Epaggelmatias?
written by The Guru , Δεκέμβριος 19, 2008

"GIATI EIMASTE ERASITECHNES TOURN PROVITERS" and will remain so i guess.....
Sorry for all my proposals Melis.... enomiza pos isoun epaggelmatias provitor 'erasitexnikon tournoua'...

...
written by Skoupa®- , Δεκέμβριος 19, 2008

Emperdeftikes fenete pou ton epagelmatiko tropo pou ta organono. Oi file Gianno. Eimai erasitechnis organotis kai etsi tha minw.

Teams Competition 2009 - Take 2
written by Costas Avraam , Ιούλιος 21, 2009

Teams competition Format
Each team shall consist of 2 players plus 1 or 2 reserves.
On any given match day 2 players shall represent each team.
Each team shall nominate their no 1 and no 2 player before the competition starts.
At halfway stage of the competition teams will have the opportunity to change their player order so 1 could change with 2 or 2 can change with 3.
Each Team can nominate a HOME ground and Date. Example, Kkolis and partner may choose Kkolisium as their home ground on Sundays. Avraam

Each match best of 3 sets.

Player 1 Team A vs Player 1 Team B,
Player 2 Team A vs Player 2 Team B.
Team A vs Team B in doubles.

Need 2 courts to finish relatively quick. I Predict a total of 3 - 3.5 hours pending on longevity of matches. Some could finish earlier of course.
2 Points are awarded for each win and 2 more for the overall Team victory, that makes a total of 8 points up for grabs.
So if the singles are 1-1 then the doubles match will determine the overall victory.
If a team loses both singles they can still pick up 2 valuable points for their team and restrict the opposition by denying them 2 points.
Teams can accumulate
0 points for 0-3 loss
2 points for 1-2 loss
6 points for 2-1 victory
8 points for 3-0 victory

Top 4 teams compete in 2 Semi Finals and winners play off in the Final.
More finer details to follow if enough interest is generated.